Discussion thread [Serious]

[lunar_furor]

Shhh... I know it's really long...

Topic one:

So I was thinking
About religion earlier this week and I've found three points of discussion to start with.

1. Do you believe there is a higher power? If so, in what form (please no disrespect to other's beliefs)

2. What is your opinion on "the afterlife"?

3.What is your opinion on atheists as a people? for example do you feel they are offensive? (I'm trying not to put words in your mouth)

I do not feel there. Is a higher power as such, just that the universe is one entity that has always existed, but is constantly changing, with births and deaths occuring frequently. It'ts kind
Of like how a Portuguese man of war is.

I don't think t here is an afterlife... I believe that when something dies it is replaced as a cell would be but not reincarnated, because if you cannot remember anything from a past life
then it's hard to prove you are the same person.

By giving Atheism a name, you almost making it a sect, with it having a set of beliefs and large number of "followers" who preach to others. If, instead of claiming to be atheist, you quietly denied the existance of a
God, you wouldn't be thought of as one of the things to so adamantly dislike ( for want of a better word).

1. I'm not completely sure, but I'm going with no.

2. You die, and then you go where you think your going. I'm going to a bathroom in Aruba.

3. I consider my self Atheist/Agnostic or Agneist as I put it from time to time. I feel without rules that seem off morally and logically, to me, that I can think more clearly. I feel like I don't need some larger being to make the best of my self, I feel that accepting the things NATURE throws at us as some divine beings act is really the opposite of free will, and it's just letting what happens happen. It's like seeing that a river will over flow a city soon, and saying, nope... it's what He wants, instead of building a dam and diverting the flow. Just my take on it.

Although Keja I don't think calling it Atheism gives it a sect, as a religion anyway. Atheism is a broad term as it's easily blended with other beliefs. For instance Agneims, isn't the rejection of a religion, it's just a non-acceptance of any so far. It's like... instead of betting on a team you just watch. I guess, and some atheists will say the same, because that's all people know it by. I mean you could say, with the argument given, that the KKK is a sect when, in fact, most of them are Christians. Even the Starwars/trek groups could be called a sect, maybe I'm using that term a little broadly but my point seems to still stand.

I would have to say, though, that if the God that is portrayed in the Bible is proven true, then I'd immediately take the path of hell, in that the god portrayed in the Bible is ... well actually rather destructive and violent for no particular reason. Look at Job. He lived in accordance with God, raised a good farm and what not, what did God do? Punished the crap out of him. I have read the Bible a few times, and I have to say that any one who takes it literally is asking for an acid trip, not a religious experience.

If any of this comes off as harsh I apologize, when it comes to religion, especially popular, and new religion, I'm very ... stand back and watch...ey. Because it's the biggest cash cow ever and I barely even trust my neighbors.

1. No I do not, most of you know this already . I think the evidence against it has made it very unlikely that there is a higher power, especially one who interferes with humans on a daily basis.

2. I think it's about the same as Arkie says, but that you don't wake up. You never wake up. It would be like falling asleep, without any dreams or nightmares, and then you never wake up. Of course you have no concious when your dead or anything. I think it's why some people call death the eternal sleep...

3. Being an atheist myself I think highly of them . I also think that we should have right to critise others beliefs...

I agree, even the logical evidence, such as omnipresence, against any god is hard to argue with. And we should criticize others, within reason. Criticism is how we test weather or not our 'theory/belief' holds up. Don't be offensive about it though...

[Shai'tan]

I agree, even the logical evidence, such as omnipresence, against any god is hard to argue with. And we should criticize others, within reason. Criticism is how we test weather or not our 'theory/belief' holds up. Don't be offensive about it though...

What I meant

It was long, but a good read... I'm really glad Keja made this thread

[ThingerDudes]

one thing I think is, if there is a god, it shouldn't matter if you went to church to worship or not, as long as you are a good person. I personally don't like the notion of there not being a higher power because then that would make us the as humans as the ones at the highest power, and that sort of frightens me because that's a lot of pressure, being the ones with the highest power.

[lunar_furor]

I just don't get how people say caring, loving, awesome, blah blah blah, when your options are, believe in my crazy stories or go suffer. Eternal pleasure or suffering is also impossible to have. Eternal anything is pointless, not only that but you would probably bore of the eternal pleasure, and after so much suffering you'd really just stop caring. For you Agneists out there, next time your on youtube check out ExaggeratedElegy he makes some very good points... heck even if your not atheist/agnostic you might want to hear what he has to say.

[ThingerDudes]

some people like to believe in the crazy stories because then the answer's right in front of them. they don't need to go searching for it or put any great effort into what is going to happen to them. For some people, this makes them a lot more happier and comfortable than if that stuff is not there. I just like religion because it gives a philosophy to people's lives eg don't cause harm to other people. and that's what it says in the bible. and that's why I think even though I believe in a higher power and go to church every Sunday, it shouldn't matter to God if people believe in Him as long as he/she was a good person. the problem is that organized religion twists these teaching such as love thy neighbour into if your neighbours are gay by all means hurt them, or killing in the name of God will make you glorious.

[lunar_furor]

Yeah that is pretty bad. That's another good point, religion sparks A LOT of bigotry. God hates these people, god hates those people, but he loves YOU. I don't see how so many people can be so outrageously negative towards gays, and people of other religions, just because 'their god told them to' or what ever the reason is. They's just different.

[hobobuster]

But Lunar, when i said God loves us etc, I didn't mean only us who believe. I don't believe the whole eternally punished thing. In fact, I think ALL religions out there have some sort of truth in them, as well as some lies.

Take Buddhism for example. I find it farfetched that an old fat gives luck, but at the same time, Buddhism offers such great principles that lead you to have a better life for yourself and towards your fellow man.

Christianity, wether it be Catholicsm, Baptist, Lutheran, or whatever, still has problems and such with getting facts straight or not being so outrageously against other religions, but at the same time, it gives people a model to look to, and to follow. If, in Christianity, Jesus had been a prick and killed and stealed and broke the law on every occassion, and Christianty was still focused on becoming "Christ-like", then the writers of the bible would have done him up with as much prestige as he has now, but in the opposite direction. And people would follow his morals, and evil would not be evil, good would. But he was a good person, and so Christianity gives people hope.

As a matter of fact, it seems thats what most things are geared towards these days... Giving people hope. Seeing as how in this day and age things are going downhill fast, hope seems to be all most people have left.

My question is...hope for what?

[lunar_furor]

If anything is going downhill it's noticeable. More frivolity, more ignorance, more financial trouble, yet... none of this has effected me yet. I have a 'low income' job and will soon be living on my own in actually better shape than if I were with my parents. Sure it gives hope, but when we start telling people what's right and wrong, we are more than abusing the religious system and it's influence. There is no right and wrong, just opinion and counter-opinion, it's all perspective. People will not do something to harm them selves in one way or another, so if harming someone harms them, they more than likely won't do it. If someone is relying on hope they better get their stuff together and fix their problem fast. Nature and chance RARELY give you the favorable option.

[Shai'tan]

Take Buddhism for example. I find it farfetched that an old fat gives luck, but at the same time, Buddhism offers such great principles that lead you to have a better life for yourself and towards your fellow man.

I find Buddhism to be more of a lifestyle then a religion... I also find Buddhism more peaceful then most religions...

And if Jesus was a prick I doubt he'd be in the Bible in the first place...

And religion has been abusing it's power for decades, which is something I find wrong. Religion has no place in politics...

[Arkannine]

Yes, in that it has been abusing power. In the XV - XIX centuries, especially... I heard the priests and other staff couldn't get married because secretly, the higher staff wanted to keep their money and belongings, instead of them going to his wife and children f he had any...

[CX gamer]

Religion, in my opinion is to offer solutions;

• People realised life can be pointless without having a goal of some sort, creating a religion would give them meaning in their sad lifes
• Questions like Where does one go when one dies? would be answered, and people strived to live a good existence
• People who do good for the community, who don't take credit for it, the true kind of good-do-ers, will be seen from God and be rewarded for it. Which results in better people...
• One gets a sparkle of hope in when times are dark

If you are religious in the way you act, you're a good person, there is no need to go to God's house and repeat the same thing over and over... Which I don't think Jesus would have wanted... You go to church to learn about the teaching of Christianity... If you know them already, there is no point...

Sorry for any offendings...

[Arkannine]

I agree. I don't know if this is true, but I heard the bible was a normal fictional book until some random emperor or king or w/e readed it, liked it, and adapted it to be christianity's story.

[vraiment]

1.-Before the Big Bang what the fuck was? I mean, there could not be nothing and then something, from nothing just nothing can follow up. Before there was something that has no psychics limits like length, tall, width or time. That something have the power for create matter. I hasn't been able to logically prove that that being have some influence over the world or is just indifferent to our existence.
2.-Throw yourself trough the window and then call me.
3.-I mean they can be happy as long they are not like "If the Bible say so needs 9x10^9999999 reasons for say that is true and something that going against it it doesn't need reasons". I hate that hate to the Church -.-

[CX gamer]

I agree. I don't know if this is true, but I heard the bible was a normal fictional book until some random emperor or king or w/e readed it, liked it, and adapted it to be christianity's story.

Fictional... Hundreds years of exaggeration and addition make it that there is a core of truth in the story, however it being very complicated and lots of people interpretate it the wrong way...

[Arkannine]

Like I said, I heard that somewhere but do not know if it is true or not.

[atomtengeralattjaro]

it seems noone really understood my previous post but i couldn't expect any better.. (not gonna explain it further though)

Yeah that is pretty bad. That's another good point, religion sparks A LOT of bigotry. God hates these people, god hates those people, but he loves YOU. I don't see how so many people can be so outrageously negative towards gays, and people of other religions, just because 'their god told them to' or what ever the reason is. They's just different.

religion doesn't equal christianity doesn't equal catholicism. You're generalizing VERY broadly.

some people like to believe in the crazy stories because then the answer's right in front of them. they don't need to go searching for it or put any great effort into what is going to happen to them. For some people, this makes them a lot more happier and comfortable than if that stuff is not there. I just like religion because it gives a philosophy to people's lives eg don't cause harm to other people. and that's what it says in the bible. and that's why I think even though I believe in a higher power and go to church every Sunday, it shouldn't matter to God if people believe in Him as long as he/she was a good person. the problem is that organized religion twists these teaching such as love thy neighbour into if your neighbours are gay by all means hurt them, or killing in the name of God will make you glorious.

that's very true, this is basically why christianity is so popular, it attacts the "simple minded" (pardon for the expression), but not only them of course.

I just don't get how people say caring, loving, awesome, blah blah blah, when your options are, believe in my crazy stories or go suffer.

you have a lot more options than those.. it's not about the crazy stories, at least not the literal meanings, as it's been discussed sometime ago.. it's not about go suffer.. gah, being religious just out of fear of hell is not only pointless but an extremely selfish and disgusting way of life. It's like "i'll be good so i can have eternal fun and happiness after i died" of course not.
Damn, we could criticise the shallow layers of religion for ages, there is no point..

I would have to say, though, that if the God that is portrayed in the Bible is proven true,

what do you mean by proven true? do you think scientists will one day hang themselves because they found a "scientific evidence" for the existence of God?
sheet, what kind of god, anyway? manbearpig? a machine? the internet? ..

Look at Job. He lived in accordance with God, raised a good farm and what not, what did God do? Punished the crap out of him.

i haven't read Job's book, (nor do i plan to in near future, heard it's boring) BUT from what i've heard, i'm pretty sure it has an actual meaning, moral, and purpose.

I have read the Bible a few times, and I have to say that any one who takes it literally is asking for an acid trip, not a religious experience.

true. Who asked you to take it literally?

even the logical evidence, such as omnipresence, against any god is hard to argue with.

logic? (read my previous post) i mean you can clearly disprove the unexistence of .. say, a bearded old dude in a chair on a cloud, who can make people happy or suffer whenever he wants. Congrats for that.

I agree. I don't know if this is true, but I heard the bible was a normal fictional book until some random emperor or king or w/e readed it, liked it, and adapted it to be christianity's story.

Fictional... Hundreds years of exaggeration and addition make it that there is a core of truth in the story, however it being very complicated and lots of people interpretate it the wrong way...

the dude who actually selected the parts for the bible wanted to make christianity a popular religion.. there were lots of (even contradictional) books and gospels, he selected a few that he liked.. so much for the "word of God".

[ThingerDudes]

I said this somewhere before, but a nun at my church said that the first few (I don't know how many) books of the bible are purely fictional and only meant to be a metaphor.

[vraiment]

religion doesn't equal christianity doesn't equal catholicism. You're generalizing VERY broadly.

I'm gonna quote this every time I post here, he's so fucking right...

And yeah, the genesis is a metaphor is not literal, as far God is not a temporal being you cannot say that he created such thing in 1 day, it could be 1 microsecond or 1 eon, that metaphysic being cannot be trapped in time.

[CX gamer]

religion doesn't equal christianity doesn't equal catholicism. You're generalizing VERY broadly.

I'm gonna quote this every time I post here, he's so fucking right...

And yeah, the genesis is a metaphor is not literal, as far God is not a temporal being you cannot say that he created such thing in 1 day, it could be 1 microsecond or 1 eon, that metaphysic being cannot be trapped in time.

I agree, the seven days of creation are symbolic, I think if God were to have everything, we would have created all of it at once, as he would be master of time...

[lunar_furor]

@ atom's long post

True I did pick on Christianity, and didn't take the time to detail my post more (twas before work). However there are plenty of vicious accounts of acts of god in the bible. I pick the christian one because of it's utter popularity, I don't have time to dissect EVERY religion so easiest to just go for the most popular, and the one I know most about. I don't mean to say that Christianity = All religions, I apologize if it seems that way. So when I say prove god, I mean that one. If it were say, Buddha or maybe, MAYBE, the Greek Gods I'd have a different take. Being in contact win this religion most, I criticize it a little more, and that's a little unfair, but I'm not going to give a big opinion on something I know little about, and true I might take to one religion so I can't say ALL religions are a lie or what ever, but for that to happen you'd need to come to me with something more than 'It'll give you hope' '[Something about after death]' and things like this. I don't look down on anyone following a religion, some of my good friends are RIDICULOUSLY religious. I just have a REALLY hard time buying it.

This video also explains what I mean by disprove.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcToWjc_ ... re=related